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| 151 |
From: Rune Kock <zarquon@t...>
Date: Sun Jul 11, 1999 1:07am
Subject: deNomic Potential loophole for The Supreme Being in the Universe.
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_If_ an undecided judgment is considered valid,
and _if_ Aeshna gets 10 points as voluntary judge when making a judgment as
Supreme Being,
and _if_ a judgment of "undecided" from the Supreme Being must immediately
be submittet to her again for a new judgment,
_then_ the Supreme Being can get all the points she wants by repeatedly
making a judgment of "undecided".
(A similar loophole may exist for vegetables).
R.
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| 152 |
From: Ole Andersen <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Sun Jul 11, 1999 11:19am
Subject: deNomic Re: Sv: Vegetable payments
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| |
Rune wrote (quoting me):
: > You forgot to add the 100 % VAT.
: >
: >
: > Ole
:
: | Payments due (VAT): |
: | Agricultural Foundation to Ole: 4 Vegetables |
: | Agricultural Foundation to Rune: 2 Vegetables |
: | Ole to Agricultural Foundation: 2 Vegetables |
: | Rune to Agricultural Foundation: 1 Vegetable |
:
: VAT on payments from the Foundation cannot result in different amounts
from
: the foundation than to the foundation. These payments will always be
equal.
That makes no sense.
: As the VAT payments in these cases cancel each other out, we could just
: ignore them -- but you are right that it's unclear whether that is
allowed.
No. It is entirely clear. You have to pay 100 % on top of every transaction
during the Turn. The only transaction without VAT is the payment to the
Voundation of the VAT.
:
: Rule 478, vegetable taxation, says:
:
: "The Officer of Agriculture may once a Turn tax the Players for
Vegetables.
: [...]
: 4) Value Added Tax, being a share to be added to every Vegetable
: transaction duuring the Turn. [...]"
:
: The first sentence only mentions taxation of _players_. However, the VAT
: description says that it applies to _every_ transaction.
:
: Perhaps the correct interpretation is that only players can be taxed, but
: that VAT must still be added to the transaction, and thus be paid by the
: player, without affecting the amount that the foundation pays.
: Consequently, with a 100% VAT, the players should pay their entire salary
: back to the foundation.
The VAT is 100 % to be added. So if you have to pay me 35 Vegetables, you
have to transfer 70 Veggies. Then I shall pay the 35 to the Foundation at
the end of the Turn.
If I paid some Veggies to the Gnomes, I should pay the 100 % on top, but the
Gnomes would have no obligation to send the VAT to the Foundation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| 153 |
From: Ole Andersen <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Sun Jul 11, 1999 1:46pm
Subject: deNomic Re: Potential loophole for The Supreme Being in the Universe.
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| |
Rune wrote:
: _If_ an undecided judgment is considered valid,
:
: and _if_ Aeshna gets 10 points as voluntary judge when making a judgment
as
: Supreme Being,
:
: and _if_ a judgment of "undecided" from the Supreme Being must immediately
: be submittet to her again for a new judgment,
:
: _then_ the Supreme Being can get all the points she wants by repeatedly
: making a judgment of "undecided".
:
: (A similar loophole may exist for vegetables).
Yet another reason not to find UNDECIDED Judgements 'valid'.
;-)
Ole
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| 154 |
From: Rune Kock <zarquon@t...>
Date: Sun Jul 11, 1999 10:15pm
Subject: deNomic Re: Sv: Sv: Vegetable payments
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On many issues, the Speaker has applied his own preliminary interpretations
of the rules, leaving it up to the players to make a CFJ if they disagree.
I believe that the Officer of Agriculture similarly can make preliminary
interpretations in matters under his administration, such as taxation and
the foundation.
The official position of the Officer is stated in my letter Saturday:
>My position as agricultural officer is that V.A.T. does not apply to
>payments from or to the agricultural foundation.
>
>Should anyone disagree, I suggest that they make a CFJ.
To continue my discussion with Ole, I have the following comments to his
comments to my comments to his comment to my payroll:
> The VAT is 100 % to be added. So if A has to pay B 35 Vegetables, A
> has to transfer 70 Veggies. Then B shall pay the 35 to the Foundation at
> the end of the Turn.
[I've taken the liberty to change "you" and "I" to A and B].
Assuming it's done the way you outline, even when A is the foundation: the
foundation pays 70 vegetables to B, and then B pays back 35 to the
foundation. The net result is exactly the same as if no VAT was calculated
at all, which was what I was trying to point out in my previous letter (the
"that makes no sense" part).
> The only transaction without VAT is the payment to the Voundation of the
> VAT.
How do you come to except this transaction, and not - say - other taxes to
the foundation?
R.
Disclaimer: Any views expressed in this letter are the personal opinions of
the sender, and shall not be construed as to represent any commitment on
behalf of the Agricultural Foundation or the Office of Agriculture.
----- Oprindelig meddelelse -----
Fra: Ole Andersen palnatoke@g...
Til: denomic@egroups.com
Sendt: 11. juli 1999 13:19
Emne: deNomic Re: Sv: Vegetable payments
> Rune wrote (quoting me):
>
> : > You forgot to add the 100 % VAT.
> : >
> : >
> : > Ole
> :
> : | Payments due (VAT): |
> : | Agricultural Foundation to Ole: 4 Vegetables |
> : | Agricultural Foundation to Rune: 2 Vegetables |
> : | Ole to Agricultural Foundation: 2 Vegetables |
> : | Rune to Agricultural Foundation: 1 Vegetable |
> :
> : VAT on payments from the Foundation cannot result in different amounts
> from
> : the foundation than to the foundation. These payments will always be
> equal.
>
> That makes no sense.
>
> : As the VAT payments in these cases cancel each other out, we could just
> : ignore them -- but you are right that it's unclear whether that is
> allowed.
>
> No. It is entirely clear. You have to pay 100 % on top of every
transaction
> during the Turn. The only transaction without VAT is the payment to the
> Voundation of the VAT.
>
> :
> : Rule 478, vegetable taxation, says:
> :
> : "The Officer of Agriculture may once a Turn tax the Players for
> Vegetables.
> : [...]
> : 4) Value Added Tax, being a share to be added to every Vegetable
> : transaction duuring the Turn. [...]"
> :
> : The first sentence only mentions taxation of _players_. However, the
VAT
> : description says that it applies to _every_ transaction.
> :
> : Perhaps the correct interpretation is that only players can be taxed,
but
> : that VAT must still be added to the transaction, and thus be paid by the
> : player, without affecting the amount that the foundation pays.
> : Consequently, with a 100% VAT, the players should pay their entire
salary
> : back to the foundation.
>
> The VAT is 100 % to be added. So if you have to pay me 35 Vegetables, you
> have to transfer 70 Veggies. Then I shall pay the 35 to the Foundation at
> the end of the Turn.
>
> If I paid some Veggies to the Gnomes, I should pay the 100 % on top, but
the
> Gnomes would have no obligation to send the VAT to the Foundation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| 155 |
From: Ole Andersen <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Mon Jul 12, 1999 9:32am
Subject: deNomic Re: Sv: Sv: Vegetable payments
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| |
: On many issues, the Speaker has applied his own preliminary
interpretations
: of the rules, leaving it up to the players to make a CFJ if they disagree.
: I believe that the Officer of Agriculture similarly can make preliminary
: interpretations in matters under his administration, such as taxation and
: the foundation.
Fine by me. Some might argue that being Speaker is a Position and not an
Office. If that distinction makes any difference here, or indeed at all, is
not entirely clear.
:
: The official position of the Officer is stated in my letter Saturday:
:
: >My position as agricultural officer is that V.A.T. does not apply to
: >payments from or to the agricultural foundation.
: >
: >Should anyone disagree, I suggest that they make a CFJ.
I disagree, since the relevant rule says _every_ transaction during the
Turn.
:
: To continue my discussion with Ole, I have the following comments to his
: comments to my comments to his comment to my payroll:
:
: > The VAT is 100 % to be added. So if A has to pay B 35 Vegetables, A
: > has to transfer 70 Veggies. Then B shall pay the 35 to the Foundation at
: > the end of the Turn.
: [I've taken the liberty to change "you" and "I" to A and B].
:
: Assuming it's done the way you outline, even when A is the foundation: the
: foundation pays 70 vegetables to B, and then B pays back 35 to the
: foundation. The net result is exactly the same as if no VAT was
calculated
: at all, which was what I was trying to point out in my previous letter
(the
: "that makes no sense" part).
Except the taxpayer holds the Veggies from Wednesday to Sunday. He might
find use for them in that period. He might even spend all of them, and
accumulate debt.
:
: > The only transaction without VAT is the payment to the Voundation of the
: > VAT.
:
: How do you come to except this transaction, and not - say - other taxes to
: the foundation?
:
1. Taxes are paid at the end of each Turn, which could be thought of as
belonging to either Turn, or to neither.
2. If VAT is added to the tax payment, the effective VAT share would be
larger than the announced VAT share.
: R.
:
:
: Disclaimer: Any views expressed in this letter are the personal opinions
of
: the sender, and shall not be construed as to represent any commitment on
: behalf of the Agricultural Foundation or the Office of Agriculture.
:
Nice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| 156 |
From: Dice server <dice-admin@p...>
Date: Mon Jul 12, 1999 4:01pm
Subject: deNomic - Proposals 508,pk509-10,pk511-12,513 - Ants' Votes
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| |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Dice rolls requested by: "the Speaker" palnatoke@g... Rolls also sent to:
denomic@egroups.com
# Lodtr=E6kning for myre 5,6,7,8,9,10
# for 508,509-10,511-12,513 # F=F8rste tal er for 508, andet tal for 509-10 # tredje tal er for 511-12, fjerde tal for 513 # F=F8rste linje er myre 5, anden linje myre 6 # tredje linje er myre 7, fjerde linje myre 8 # femte linje er myre 9, sjette linje myre 10 # 1 betyder at myren stemmer for, 2 imod og 3 undlader.
No. of sides on every die: 3
No. of dice for every roll: 1
No. of dice rolls requested: 24
No. of rolls per line: 4
3 2 1 1
1 2 3 3
2 2 1 2
3 2 3 2
3 1 1 3
1 1 2 3
Information on the dice server:
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!
Replies to dice-admin@p... vanish into a seldom-read mailbox.
For instructions on using the dice server, send a message with
subject "help" to dice@p..., or see http://www.pbm.com/dice/
The dice server is provided by:
Shadow Island Games
http://www.pbm.com/
=================================================
** NewHoo Web Directory **
An army of editors surfing the web for you!
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Original message follows:
> From palnatoke@g... Mon Jul 12 09:00:59 1999
> Received: (from smtp@localhost) by xkey.com
> id JAA02740 for dice@p...; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:00:59 -0700
> Received: from bednorz.get2net.dk(130.227.3.2) by xkey.com via smtp (V1.3)
> id sma002737; Mon Jul 12 09:00:57 1999
> Received: from opus (p419-114.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.221.114])
> by bednorz.get2net.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP
> id RAA27193 for dice@p...;
> Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:34:04 +0200 (MET DST)
> Message-ID: <037e01becc7b$eee855c0$35c68e81@opus
> From: "the Speaker" palnatoke@g...
> To: "Dice Server" dice@p...
> Subject: 508-513
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:05:01 +0200
> Organization: deNomic
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="Windows-1252"
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by bednorz.get2net.dk id RAA27193
>
> #P denomic@egroups.com
> #S 3
> #D 1
> #R 24
> #L 4
> #C Lodtr=E6kning for myre 5,6,7,8,9,10
> #C for 508,509-10,511-12,513
> #C F=F8rste tal er for 508, andet tal for 509-10
> #C tredje tal er for 511-12, fjerde tal for 513
> #C F=F8rste linje er myre 5, anden linje myre 6
> #C tredje linje er myre 7, fjerde linje myre 8
> #C femte linje er myre 9, sjette linje myre 10
> #C 1 betyder at myren stemmer for, 2 imod og 3 undlader.
> #T deNomic - Proposals 508,pk509-10,pk511-12,513 - Ants' Votes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.7
iQCVAwUBN4oRQD8NitsTFjcVAQENaAQApOTxXMfV/2kBq/W29+z7b4dRNn3+9Zjp mcOzfzKuKLeyzPILhaS8nnhV8TREtjqVOgSVJNoOhSJDCmAluI2QkyTCm1I9F1TA M8+8jJ1XaPCn0+bD9viqXl9Do8nhpgONkEswrC3czeIuAY+kkdlTg3LfxQop1Wd2 B9khN/5LOuo=
=0U5P
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| 157 |
From: the Speaker <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Sat Jul 17, 1999 7:16pm
Subject: deNomic Paradox!
|
| |
I've been quite a bit lazy this week - Speakerwise.
But I've counted the votes for Police Officer, and the result was:
Rune voted for Kira, and
I voted for Martin.
Since neither the Ants, the Nullity, nor any of the organisations are able
to vote on this, there is no majority.
This means that we can't elect a Police Officer, so the Office defaults to
the Speaker, as do all Offices that cannot be held.
As Police Officer, I can't hold any other Offices, and the Police rule
specifically includes Speakership in the group of Offices - at least for the
purposes of that rule.
So I can't be Speaker. Then I'm not the one to whom the Office defaults, but
there is no other Speaker, so there is no-one who can assign a Judge to any
CFJs in this case.
Indeed, the game cannot be run without Speaker as the rules are now, but
this cannot be determined according to the rules.
I claim that deNomic 2 is locked.
Ole, probably not Speaker
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| 158 |
From: Ole Andersen <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Wed Jul 21, 1999 8:58pm
Subject: deNomic Fw: Nomic: Real-Life Nomic
|
| |
This came on Berserker:
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Carbol rcarbol@h...
To: nomic@i...
Sent: 21. juli 1999 06:50
Subject: Nomic: Real-Life Nomic
: Well, I just got out of a Society Annual General Meeting, and let me
: say: it was very, very Nomic-ish.
:
: [Note: Please feel free to distribute this note, in full, to any other
: Nomic-related group.]
:
:
: Essentially, the leadership of the Board of this Society is under attack
: from within. Nomic players will recognize some of the strategies.
:
: First of all, there was a significant attempt to fiddle with the
: membership list (the Active Players.) Renewal notices were only sent
: out to certain people. There was a last minute rush to swell the
: membership ranks. And an attempt to show that the newest members were,
: for various arcane reasons, not allowed to vote.
:
: As far as I know, no one tried to obtain multiple memberships, but I'm
: sure they would have tried if they had thought they could get away with
: it. Perhaps the closest scam was that technically a "Family Membership"
: entitled that family to only one vote -- not a vote for each member of
: the family -- although this was apparently not enforced. There were
: other, bigger, issues on the topic of who could vote.
:
:
: This brought up a VERY Nomic-ish situation -- it almost brought tears
: to my eyes:
:
: We had a vote to determine who could vote.
:
: I *tried* to impress upon people that we could do no such thing, and
: should suspend the meeting until the issue had been clarified. Alas,
: my words fell upon deaf ears.
:
:
: We also apparently have a Treasurer who is trying to push through
: legislation which would allow her to audit herself. Unfortunately
: (for her) there is extra-Societal governmental rules which expressly
: forbid it. Still, it's a nice try at a scam.
:
:
: The Society had slowly fallen into a casualness with the Rules and
: its own Bylaws. And, just as it always does, it came back to bite
: them all in the ass with a vengence.
:
:
: There was also considerable abuse of the Rules of Order. For some
: bizarre reason, the President decided to Chair the meeting (ie,
: declare herself Administrator) even though she *clearly* did not
: have the knowledge or the will to properly enforce the Rules. At
: one point I believe we had 5 seperate Motions on the Floor. We
: had Motions introduced *in the midst of Voting*! It was *very*
: irregular, if I may say so.
:
: It didn't help that the Secretary couldn't find her butt with both
: hands. (Note that virtually every successful Nomic has an extremely
: competent "Secretary", who essentially disseminates the Game State.)
:
:
: I suddenly understood why Nikita took off his shoe and started pounding
: on tables, and why fistfights break out in Parliaments. And, I suppose,
: why flamewars erupt on Nomics.
:
:
: It also makes me appreciate in a new light what Suber's goal with Nomic
: really is. It's not "just" a game; it's an opportunity to practice
: a field of human endeavour which many people do not often get to
: directly influence, but yet remains an intensely strong force in
: everyone's lives.
:
:
:
:
: .. Roger Carbol .. rcarbol@h...
:
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| 159 |
From: Ole Andersen <palnatoke@g...>
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 1:48pm
Subject: deNomic er for inaktiv....
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| |
Skal vi ændre på det? Eller skal vi bare lade den være?
Ole |
|
